I had two kittens who were siblings and grew up together. One day, during mating season, I noticed a big, battered tomcat lurking about, chasing the female kitten who was by then over six months old and probably in season. She didn’t know what was going on with the persistent male cat who kept chasing her and finally pinned her down as she growled wildly and threateningly at him.
All this happened as her sibling, a young male, looked on noticeably perturbed. He just watched from the sidelines (like me).
One day, not long after, I noticed her brother acting peculiarly, looking at her with a different expression in his eyes and she was very cranky with him, swatting him and snarling. I finally understood when he started to chase her and mount her.
I felt disgusted with him but understood that it was instinct with cats and did not interfere. I wasn’t going to apply my morals on them.
With regards to humans, any form of incest is abhorrent to me and when I think of sexual relations between close relatives, it is repulsive and unnatural.
Although in Arab culture it is quite normal for first cousins to marry, I have never felt more than sisterly love for my cousins. Any other union would be farthest from my mind.
I recently read a thought provoking account in the Times of a woman who slept with her brother for years and shared a very special relationship together with him: I had sex with my brother but I don’t feel guilty
I was surprised by her account as it was the first time I had come across a balanced, frank piece on that kind of taboo relationship. Usually, there are very sad accounts of incest which only serve to inflame my emotions further against child abusers.
What happens though when there develops a consenting, romantic, sexual relationship between siblings close in age? Can it ever be right?
Reading through the comments on the linked article, amongst the rejections there were some people who shared similar experiences and many who sounded sympathetic.
Is it progressive to be blasé about such an issue as incest?
Or is there another side to this taboo issue that only those in mutually consenting incestuous relationships can relate to?
Marzouq said:
At first I was thought no, then I read the cats and started laughing, but amongst people I think it is very wrong and disturbing. That is just my simple opinion
Imran said:
Its the time of things to come, slowly slowly.
Mark McBride said:
Hello Jewaira!
It’s been a long time; I hope you are well and happy!
I’m working as an Emergency Medical Technician now for an ambulance service and I have a few comments to pass along on this subject. Along with emergency medical calls, we also transport patients between hospitals, such as between emergency rooms of general hospitals to hospitals that specialize in behavioral disorders, i.e. psychiatric hospitals. These particular patients arrive at the emergency rooms usually as the result of suicide attempts or in extreme depression as a result of non-compliance with their anti-depressant medications. I would say that more than half of the females I have transported because of this have a history of sexual abuse as young girls all the way through adulthood. This abuse is generally abuse by the father, but sometimes by an uncle or older male family friend.
People just don’t realize the long lasting consequences such relations have on the victims. This distrust of males extends into marriages and stays with these women their entire lives. One may forgive but one can never forget about the abuse. The shame the girls feel destroys their soul and the suicide attempts are the ultimate action to destroy a memory of evil. A father who abuses his daughter will also abuse his nieces and his granddaughters. The abuse never stops until the abuser is stopped.
====================
Hi Mark
It sure had been a long time! Glad to hear from you again.
Thank you for sharing your experiences and viewpoints on the subject. I would tend to agree with you on all aspects of this kind of abuse.
However, what I am interested in is the possibility that incest can be consensual and acceptable to some people. It is a new perspective for me.
Jewaira
Franklin Evans said:
You are asking an excellent question, but with respect you are phrasing it badly.
It’s not a black and white issue, and despite Mr. McBride’s experience with tragedy, it is not about abuse. It’s about siblings and other close blood relatives having a relationship that includes consensual sex. Sexual abuse is about an adult with power over a youngster. It has as much bearing on a consensual relationship as rape has to marriage.
The choice is not between zero-tolerance and being blasé. Neither extreme is exactly sane. This needs to be looked at on a case by case basis, and with the fully engaged filter of the culture in which the people grew up and live. As you mentioned, there are cultures where cousins marrying and having children are considered normal. I suggest you look more closely at those cultures, because they are as strongly opposed to parent-child and sibling matings as you could wish.
I am not a victim of abuse, nor would I ever consider an incestuous relationship. I join others in abhorring sexual abuse, but the rare and occasional consensual incest is not in that category.
===============================
Franklin,
You’re correct in clarifying my question.
I am referring to the situation in which an incestuous relationship is consensual. Does consent make it “right”?
The article presented a perspective of incest that I had not previously considered nor accepted. While it has not served to “convert” me, it has given me reason to pause and wonder how others perceive this taboo subject.
Jewaira
Phoenix Woman said:
Parent-child incest is obviously and automatically bad, no question.
As for the idea of “benign” sibling incest, I really don’t think such a thing exists. Most sibling incest cases are initiated by the older sibling, so there is a built-in power imbalance; the older sibling wants to control and usually diminish the younger one by treating him/her as an object and not a human being.
================
Thank you Phoenix Woman for sharing your viewpoint.
Jewaira
daggero said:
In an island nation in the Indian ocean, where slavery was once common for many years , for some reason or another the male population was almost extinct maybe because of punishment by annihilation of slaves by their masters in previous failed revolts, the marriage between brothers and sisters or other forbidden relatives , was allowed or tolerated in an attempt to keep the island populated ,the resultant off springs specially the male gender ( who we now know is more susceptible to hereditary diseases) features were extremely strange almost alien like .
Of course the white masters didn’t practice that type of marriages as they imported their wives from Europe and they enjoyed a very healthy life style in those beautiful islands surrounded by relative wealth ,sunshine, fresh produce , fish, fruit and clean air .
This practice has been disallowed maybe 20 years ago by law. i haven’t been there again to see its effect , but going back to the natural order of things as ordained by religion must be the correct thing to do as evidenced by the past events on those islands .
Perry Robinson said:
I am not sure what about consenting to a behavior dons it with moral permissibility. People can consent to grossly immoral things and incest is one of them.
2ndly, describing immoral behavior in an empathetic way doesn’t make it any less immoral, it just presents it in a way that is appealing.
So the real question is, what constitutes your moral criteria?
======================
Perry,
The fact that the relationship described in the article was written in a positive manner, might make one wonder if there is another aspect to such a relationship.
Does it boil down to a person’s moral criteria? Maybe.
Incestuous relationships are almost a universal taboo but what defines them?
For example, in Islamic culture, although marriage between first cousins is permissible, there are strict stipulations against incestuous relationships not only between immediate family members, but also between in-laws (mother or father in law).
In addition, a more interesting interpretation of an incestuous union is the forbidden marriage between a person and so called nursing brothers or sisters (which is when a person becomes one’s sister or brother because as an infant they were breastfed by the same woman at least three full feedings).
Although there might be no blood relations between nursing brothers and sisters, it is still forbidden for them to marry and regarded as a highly taboo subject.
Jewaira
Asad said:
Incest is one of the most universal of taboos. I think it’s destructive to family relationships.
In the animal kingdom, sometimes populations of organisms reach bottlenecks where the only way to survive is through inbreeding. Incest is bad, but extinction is worse.
asad123.wordpress.com
Lou-Lou said:
While the thought of having a sexual relationship with a close family member is not something I can personally understand, when it comes to stories like the one linked I find myself asking is it that we are fighting against basic animal instincts by placing such restrictions on society?
Aren’t we just all animals at the end of the day?
Ansam said:
My friend loves cats and she was talking about her male cat and how she want him to mate with his “daughter” cat, me and my other friend went EWE!!! PERV! Incest! WTH!
She thought we were just closed minded and that it is normal for cats to mate this way…. I still feel weird about it, and now your post!!! LOL
Imran said:
Its against the laws of nature and humans, and science too, we need to keep off such relations so as to maintain the genetic diversity and also to prevent the gene pool to rot.
The cheetah, due them being on the brink of extinction choose these path of inter-cross mating, and now they are having a hard time.
Our religion has long told us whom to marry and from whom to keep your distance. If the animals do it doesn’t mean we also have to do it, as we have intelligence which no other species on this planet has the right to discriminate between right and wrong.
I will give a actual case in my community it self, a family got their kids intermarried, not closely related, but somewhat and due to this , they got some weird kids which the doctor told was due to cross marriages.
Incest is bad and down right immoral. God help us all.
Perry Robinson said:
Imran,
Incest between two brothers or sisters won’t pollute the gene pool. Is that morally acceptable then?
How about a mother and a daughter?
What religion might that be since not everyone adheres to it?
Phantom Man said:
Jewaira, I think Perry makes a good point in that your question is one of many “morality” questions, and “morality” depends on one’s beliefs.
For example, some people believe it is “moral” to kill other people, for example during war or capital punishment, while others believe that killing someone is always immoral.
Some people believe taking a second wife (or third) is moral, while others believe it is immoral.
Some people believe that male domination of females is moral, while others do not.
Some people believe that morality extends to the way one dresses, or undresses.
Morality is in the mind of the individual, and societies develop laws that reflect the moral beliefs of the majority of the citizenry.
To me, for one person to take advantage of another person is immoral, so the older person in a situation of incest would be behaving immorally.
Perry Robinson said:
Phantomman,
The location of beliefs (being in the mind) doesn’t imply that they are relative.
So I wasn’t arguing for moral relativism. In fact, quite the opposite.
I was only asking what the moral criteria was.
So I will put the question to you in the following form:
Why is it immoral for an older person to take advantage of a younger person?
Azrael said:
If you even think in the slightest it could ever be right, why don’t you ask Elizabeth Fritzl.
It’s wrong on so many levels and families in the public eye have historically shown it breeds people who are simply wrong un’s.
Age is not an issue, but blood is!
Jewaira said:
Azrael
Elizabeth Fritzl’s story is beyond horrific.
Some people have a skewed view on reality and have the ability to sound
convincing about it.
Jewaira
Azrael said:
Jewaira,
Yeah but incest is simply wrong, I’m not trying to sound “convincing”, or are you saying Mr Fritzle was to his kids?
I can totally see how someone can be attracted to someone in thier family, but to physically act upon it is a whole new ball game.
=================
No doubt about it incest is wrong.
What I mean is, there are some people, like the person in the Times article, who can sound so convincing but in reality their perception is skewed.
Sexual love between parents/children, or siblings is NOT the same as marriage between cousins.
It’s just not acceptable.
Jewaira
steven said:
consider this possibilty. a sterile widow who because of societies other norms chooses to remain single . she has an adult son with sexuall needs. why can’t she use her son’s penis as one would use a vibrator but with the added advantage of a deep seated love and trust that only a mother and son can share. their union is totally consenual ,intimate and secretive. it would cure both their sexuall frustration and depression. also true pure love can never be wrong.
jewaira said:
Steven
Filial love should never be sexual.
Not amongst humans. It is too complicated.
A. Wallace said:
Well, I have been on the outside looking in, My wife and her step brother(no blood) had a night of passion. I felt like I was going to die when I found out. She told me she had always had feeling for him and it was her dream to be with him. He and her had been together when they were younger(teens). Just oral and kissing. I have forgave her for the act but it still hurts that he is in her heart. Shame that I can never understand nor forgive for that. I have to hide all my feelings and never let her know it kills me.
jewaira said:
It is her step brother. Second, it happened before she married you. Third, if she is passionate about him, there is nothing you can do except to try and move past this; what is there to forgive? Not acknowledging her feelings will just make your marriage relationship harder to endure
jenny said:
Instead of arguing, maybe what happened to me can put some things into perspective.
one-
“Parent-child incest is obviously and automatically bad, no question.
As for the idea of “benign” sibling incest, I really don’t think such a thing exists. Most sibling incest cases are initiated by the older sibling, so there is a built-in power imbalance; the older sibling wants to control and usually diminish the younger one by treating him/her as an object and not a human being.”
This was what I got out of most of the comments.
Maybe this can help answer your question- I had an incestuous relationship with my brother who is two years older than me. It started when I was around 9 or 10 until I was 13. He initiated, like the quotation says, and from there he introduced me to my first sexual activities. He was the first one that touched me, not myself.
I constantly wonder what it is like to be touched for the first time by the opposite sex, someone you care about, someone who is right- not your brother. I know sometimes I didn’t want to do it and I felt extremely uncomfortable.
Jumping to the point- I still don’t know if he wanted power over me, but that’s what he got. And that’s what every other guy gets from me when I can’t say no. That’s what every guy gets from me when I try to build a relationship, and that’s what every guy doesn’t want from me by the end when he just wants me to stop talking to him but I can not pull myself away from being attached, and what hurts most is I know all of this is happening but I can not let go. I was his object, and that’s all I sometimes can be to guys even though I know I am an amazing person with so much to offer.
I’ve never had a relationship, I’ve never been turned on by someone else, I watch porn when I tell myself not to to feel that gratification of seeing a guy use a girl objectively. It makes me sick, but I am constantly fighting against it.
Sometimes I feel destroyed, but I know I have a lot to offer so I try to remain hopefull- but what happened with me and my brother destroyed my self-worth, my sense of self, my sensitivity to sex acts, my thoughts, what turns me on, and my fears of having children.
I am 19 years old now, I am going to school for a successful career, I am still close with my brother, I hate him sometimes but I love him mostly. We never talk about what happened, and sometimes I wonder if he even knows what he did.
So is incest destructive? Right or wrong? It depends on the person who wants to remain a victim because he/she doesn’t feel they have a way out of it.
When someone is in a situation like that, they are introduced to what it’s like to be against reality- I knew it was wrong, but my mind was tossed into a different world after that. I am constantly trying to ground myself and realize I can be like everyone else after so long of not thinking I was good enough to get good grades, good enough to keep up with life like everyone else. Until I hit college and found myself behind and having sex with anyone who wanted to.
I’m glad I’ve had the time to think about this for a while rationally before I ran into this blog. Hopefully it will click with some of you.
jewaira said:
Jenny
Thank you for sharing your experiences and your feelings.
Your comment stayed with me for a while as I contemplated what you have gone through.
It seems to me you are still working out your feelings towards what happened to you as a young girl and I am glad of one thing and that is your attempt to analyze your experience and get past it.
We have no control over past events or how we reacted or how we were involved. But we can have control over how we react to past events in the present, and how we will continue our life.
You will only be a victim for as long as you permit yourself to be.
Moving on is hard and won’t be easy but continuing to remind yourself of your self-worth and your right to a balanced happy relationship will prove rewarding in the long run.
Knowing that you are not alone may help as well. Talking about it even on anonymous forums gives one a sense of relief. Sharing with others who have been through the same may help. You could even set up an anonymous blog where you can write about everything that happened to you and then delete it. It may offer catharsis.
Thank you again for sharing your feelings.
jenny said:
i read this everytime i get upset. just thought you should know.
jewaira said:
Jenny
We all live our lives for a variety of reasons and there are so many different lessons to be learned.
Along the way in life situations, there are good spirits who look after us and help us when we ask them to in ways that we may not be directly aware of.
I hope those good forces are with you in your time of need and when you are feeling low. I hope that you find strength within you
and know that no matter how hard things seem now, there must be a time when things will get better and they will if you will them to. Keep faith.
Annoymouse factoid said:
to begin with back in the times of kings and queens incest was in many kingdoms enforced and even the things we call pedophilia was also from ancient times of older kings wedding their own daughters to give them children when either the queen died or got to old to bear children. this went on for thousands of years, only in the 1880s or 1920′s was it seen as unethical. but before then it was legal and at times enforced. Just a bit of real historical fact and not really new to occur.
Silent hoper, Eternal watcher said:
To understand what you are asking about you need to look at 2 different sides. One is knowledge, who is a sibling and who isn’t and socially accepted norms play a massive part in how we percieve incest. Scientific studies have shown that siblings separated at birth or in early life (upto about 5 or 6 usually) will not remember their brother/sister and if they meet them in later life can be sexually attracted to them, there has been a number of reported cases of marriages having to be annuled due to the partners turning out to be siblings. I suspect that in many of those cases, if asked annonymously, the partners in question would likely say that they only separated due to the social stigma they expected to come, or like you that they felt that incest was wrong/sickening, this aspect being derived from the social position on incest being morally/religiously wrong.
The reason behind incest being legally/religiously wrong links to the second side which I will come to soon. It is, as several other people have stated, due to genetic diversity and the need to ensure the bloodlines do not become to close-nit and weak to hereditary illnesses and external diseases.
Yourself and a number of others have equated it to animals and in a manner of speaking it is similar. In much the same way as cheetas are having to breed more closely due to declining population, at some point in human history our species underwent a near-complete extiction. It is estimated that humankind was reduced to approximately 5 males. It is certain however that we only had 1 female left.
It is because of this close-knit gene-pool many thousands of years ago that ‘breeding’ partnerships with such close relations are a problem. In a few more thousand years (I think the estimate was between 10,000 and 15,000) our genetic diversity should have reached such a point as to allow for those close-knit partnerships once more.
In Jenny’s case, which I have to say leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, as with so many similar abuse cases the damage to their self-esteem and psyche is generally not caused as much by the ‘who’ as so much by the ‘when’. It is the age of the person that causes the damage, with their mind not ready to handle what is being done. Where the events to have occured several years later, between fully aware and consenting partners then the effects would have been equivilent to a very messy break-up with a long term partner, devastating in their own right but much less likely to damage self-worth.
And to Jenny:
I apologise if any of my comments have hurt you/caused offense, I had no intention for them to do so. You sound like a wonderful young woman who was abused at her most vulnerable by someone who should have protected you.
maria said:
well i from day 1 have had a great relationship with my half brother and i dearly love him. we get along so well it is incredible. i didnt have the chance to really grow up with him as my family left the country and he stayed with is mother. i find him sexy and attractive. he is older them me by a few years. i dont know, i get the point that it is wrong but the thing is i view him like a bit more then my brother. actually the fact that he is only my half brother helps a lot and i just don’t see him that way. am sorry if i seem crazy put am not please comment back.
i dont know if it is ok and yes it does exist brothers and sister having sex even in the USA secretly.
fonsmoonen said:
Hell-heavenly all the good, that sound compelling attractive,follow your feeling
that´s okay, right or wrong does not count for Maria´s .
maria said:
lol thanks, you have made me feel so much better.
fonsmoonen said:
I see, I see
With your appearance
You did the same to me.
maria said:
lol! well then.
jewaira said:
Are you just attracted to him or do you have a physical relationship?
maria said:
attracted we haven’t been physical to each other. plus am do young for such thing in my opinion.
jewaira said:
then think twice and carefully
you may be misinterpreting your emotions
maria said:
lol, i know what i feel ! but thanks.
jewaira said:
Sorry I didn’t mean to sound patronizing
snr said:
you tell her not to listen to fons
.
jewaira said:
Yes Fons has very liberal ideas
fonsmoonen said:
And he offer a whole lot of god damn unnecessarily social officials rules for it.
Keep the fire hot keep the fire burning.
fonsmoonen said:
Most Maria´s prefer romantic violin music instead of a deathly shark kiss.
jewaira said:
this is amusing
fonsmoonen said:
This also …
jewaira said:
fonsmoonen said:
Just remember. Such an incredible number from all kind of music.
I did never realise the importance from the western popular music
until I travel the Soviet Union many many years ago.
Without the everyday rhythm and melody I start to miss it.