Kuwaiti Love July 14, 2007
Posted by jewaira in Dear Jewaira, Relationships.trackback
Dear Readers,
We have an interesting Dear Jewaira this month. As usual feel free to comment and contribute your wisdom on this subject.
Thank you.
Jewaira
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Dear Jewaira
I am an American man and in love with a Kuwaiti women. She has citizenship and I want to marry her but her family doesn’t know about it.
I am 32 and she in her late twenties. I am ready to take that step. We have been together for almost 2 years.
I want her to visit America as well but i don’t know where to start…
Can any one give me some suggestions, please?
KuwaityLove
I suggest you forget about it and go back to the states before you get into trouble with her family.
Trust me, this is your best move, otherwise you might get beaten up and thrown in jail for molesting a woman, indecent proposal, or maybe at worst, rape.
Be very careful, and stay safe.
If you are willing to convert and become a Muslim, the family might be more at ease. However, there still lies the cultural aspects. Kuwaiti families are very careful with whom their daughter marries, it’s a matter of pride and honor so to speak.
The idea of a foreigner/non-Kuwaiti or especially non-Muslim marrying a Kuwaiti is an obstacle that only a few overcome.
Assuming that you’re a decent person, I wish you the best of luck,in obtaining the family’s blessing and maintaining the relationship. I say the latter because from my experience, the clash of cultures eventually finds its way into such relationships. Maybe not right away but eventually it will rear its ugly head, and it’s not something every couple can cope with.
i’m with purg & nomad
On a lighter note, I wish I could marry Andrea Parker, I’d change my ways for her, even the embedded cultural ones in me :p
Purgatory may paint a very harsh picture, but in the end it all depends on the girl’s family background. If they are conservative, end it now with your dignity intact.
If they are liberal and exposed to other cultures, you could still stand a chance of happiness together. I know of a few Kuwaiti girls who married Americans in the past few years and they seem happy.
So ask yourself, is she at all familiar with your culture? Are you familiar with hers? How good is her English? How good is your Arabic? And so on… because you really can’t have a marriage if you can’t talk to each other.
Is she “the one” you want to spend the rest of your life with?
I don’t see a question in the email. Suggestions for what?
Anyway, there’s something fundamentally humiliating about having to be married in secret. Marriage is a joy that ought to be shared with the families of the spouses and not treated like some sort of conspiracy or scheme.
I do not think what I mentioned is harsh, but it is reality that would apply and is common now in our closed society. I think even if the family has a liberal background exposed to other cultures, just the thought of marrying a non-kuwaiti, non-arab, non-muslim, will make them cringe, and judging by recent experiences many foreigners have had, it will result in more pain than joy.
While sometimes such marriages happen and people “seem” happy, I doubt that is the norm, then again what marriage is a happy marriage these days, everyone suffers, but in a game of odds, dice and poker chips, what you might attempt will be very risky, so again, be cautious.
I just noticed something else you mentioned, “she has citzenship”, what does that mean? Are you sure she is Kuwaiti?
Purg, he mean she has an american passport.
I know many Kuwaiti girls that are married to American, some come from a very conservative family. It all depends on the girl not the family. If she dearly loves you and reday to sacrifice her life and the option of being a Kuwaiti citizen then I suggest you guys go a head and get married. There is nothing in the Kuwaiti law that would prevents her from doing so if she is over 21. If any complication arise, I say book her a ticket and go to the US and marry her there.
I don’t beleive that you should convert to marry a Muslim girl, so don’t unless you have to do it on paper to make ur marriage legal.
Shopa, you are giving the guy mixed messages, laws and regulations do not apply in Kuwait, our version of laws are based on traditions and people’s interpetations, so depending on laws is not a good option. Plus, before quoting laws, I suggest you read it and quote the exact text. I am not an expert, but I think when a Kuwaiti marries a foreign national, approval has to be granted from ministry of foreign affairs in order to legally establish the marriage in Kuwait, otherwise them being married has no basis. If this is not correct, someone correct me.
In addition, if the guy had the option of taking her with him and doing it abroad, he would have done so, but he does not want to exclude her from her family and wants to find ways of doing it proper. Eloping is not an option.
How about me and you elope shopa, you are cuddly and I am a teddy, works well? ;p
Purg, I agree you need to get some paperwork done to get the marriage legal yet there is nothing in the law that states your family needs to approve. If she is over 21, she can always appear infront of a judge and presents her case.
Shopa, what about eloping?
If the family is against the marriage, then I guarantee you that it will most likely not happen despite the fact if a judge gave the green light (especially if the family is very determined). Law or no law, this is Kuwait, a very family-oriented country where having connections gets you places and things, especially in matters concerning family. It’s basically the Romeo and Juliet scenario but on the scale of an entire country.
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In cases where Kuwaiti women I know of who have eloped with Americans, they have lived abroad. Their families eventually came around but if a woman has very strict brothers then that could be a problem.
In any case, life for the Kuwaiti woman married to the foreigner is different and she will eventually become fed up with all the discrimination against her family and kids.
The important thing is for both man and woman to know what to expect after the honeymoon is over and realities set in.
J
then they should elope!
Purg, so cuddly and teddy is a good combination?
Shopa, technically yes, it works better than palm tree cuddly/teddy or midget cuddly/teddy or even Jewaira/Ayya and Teddy.
إشهل مغازل اللي ما صار و لا استوى
Lol Ok I think the proposal is very clear to you Shopa and I am happy it happened on this blog
And Purgatory I noticed you changed from Bear to teddy.
Jewaira
If jewaira agrees, I am in
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I would love to see you and Purgatory tie the knot in the Boudoir! What a wonderful wedding! My gift would be the chihuaha with the heart shaped spot on its side
J
Kuwaiti lover,
you just said my friends story, you know i heard this story 10 times in this year only.
I would advice you to try asking her to make you meet her family, specially her parents.. if this happened then you might have a chance in marriage if not, then this girl is like every other girl in kuwait enjoying the american blood and stoping when it comes to marriage unless you have lots of money or something that will shut her friends mouth and say WOW she got an AMERICAN!
i hope you know what i mean.
Best of luck .
Purg: kololololoooooosh ! mabogheet!
Shopa: shall we start buying things?
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So Judy do you see an increase in the number of Kuwaiti women romantically involved with non-Kuwaiti men?
J
Actually, I think Purgatory and Zaydoun have given the wisest and most realistic advice here on the subject. While I personally know more than a few Kuwaiti girls who are married to Americans/Brits, (and know of more who I am not personally acquainted with) these girls are from very liberal and westernized Kuwaiti families and backgrounds. I am also friends with a Kuwaiti woman from a huge “7athar” Bedouin family who is married to an American of Arab descent. She struggled for a few years with her family to marry him, enduring beatings and threats until they finally gave in when she told them she would eventually run away with him if they didnt agree and give their blessing - which was very important to both her and her now husband. The family finally gave in, gave them a wedding and fortunately for them both, their feelings for each other managed to survive but just barely. They made it and have a few kids now, but it was hell getting there.
Here’s wishing you the best of luck and Godspeed, know what you are up against the both of you and think carefully before you act. Even though Kuwaiti society and Kuwaities have changed dramatically in the past 5 years and there is now much more social acceptance as well as a HUGE plethora of Kuwaiti women marrying non-Kuwaities, there are still plenty of obstacles to make the road to your union that much more frustrating and difficult.
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Thanks MsBaker
Again it would be nice to have a Kuwaiti woman married to an American or Brit contribute to this discussion.
Jewaira
Jewaira, please fix your reply on my comment to bold font in order to distinguish it as usually done from your side, and I will NOT watch those perverted youtube videos you send me!
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I thought of you the moment I saw that clip! It is perverted in a grotesquely funny way!
J
I just want to tell everyone one thank you for all the good advice, i can tell it was well thought out and with good intentions.
My girlfriend is a very sensitive and caring person and that is my real attraction to her. She always says her love for me is because of my heart and i feel the same way about her. I know if anything goes wrong, if anyone finds out, she will be punished..maybe physically. I wont allow this to happen…
1001 made a really good point about celebrating the marriage …and i also thought about our future family as well. How not having a good relationship with her family will affect them if we move without letting anyone know…but i know that telling them is out of the question.
I believe that we will eventually end up running away and getting married and hope that the family will one day understand and somewhat except me. At least for the sake of the children (Lord willing)
I have been through alot of things that most people have never had to endure and that is why i dont quit when people say it cant be done or its a risk involved.
But believe it or not, she has a stronger will and drive then i do. That is why i feel we make a good couple. She pushes me to be better and i have always pushed myself with others just hanging on. So her support means the world to me.
I guess i just needed to get in the minds of people on the outside of these feeling i have. Up till now its always been our secret. So this forum has allowed me to feel free. And so, lord willing, if we are fortunate enough to get married everyone here is invited to the wedding (via the internet ;-)….
Shopa I am very glad to see that you know of other Kuwaiti women who are married to Americans. That brings alot of peace. And by the way, marriage was her ideal..she doesn’t want these limits and she doesn’t really like Kuwaiti men so that pretty much reduces her chances of marrying anyone the family would approve of. “Nothing good in life comes easy”..at least it never has for me..so …
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Have you thought about having to convert to Islam? Is that a prerequisite with her? Marriage between a Muslim woman and non-Muslim man is prohibited in Kuwait
Have you discussed religion at all? Some people say religion does not matter but when they have children, it is a different story.
How much do you know and are you willing to learn about her culture?
How familiar is she with your ways and your customs?
These are just a few things that come to mind and will be important once you settle down.
Maybe it would be a good idea to try to get in touch with couples who are in the same situation as you. I wish there was a way we could get you in touch with people in similar situations as you who can give you some ideas.
Jewaira
Purg
what you said about MOA’s approval… I heard that is applied in Saudi! never heard it is here also!
Kuwaiti love
I am commenting here to get an invite to your wedding. One thing though, how come for two years, she was the one who asked for marriage? haven’t you thought of it before her?
Jewaira
I know you’d say this is a Flamingoliya-like question. I can’t help it, shasawi.
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The Flamingoliya-like comment:
I am commenting here to get an invite to your wedding.
Love your wit
J
Jewaira
nice picture! looks like Omar ALShareef!
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Needs some more fixing but I like it too thanks
j
This is all very interesting. I feel like a bit of a voyeur here but I can’t help coming back.
I know many Kuwaiti women who’ve married Americans or Brits, but in every single instance where the gentlemen converted to Islam the family agreed to the marriage. Given that she’s in her late 20’s, because her market shelf life is fading and now the parents are worried of she will ever get married, they probably won’t object if he goes and asks for her hand.
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Harmonie
It would be nice if you could share success stories or common problems that face Kuwaiti women marrying foreigners or of foreigners marrying Kuwaiti women
J
Flam, also applies here, but maybe someone who is expert on the laws can shed more light on the exact details.
Besides, you are after young toddlers, so in your case, they should present their kindergarten certificate too ;p
As for me and shop, she decided to run away with someone else, therefore I am stuck with Jewaira and her balls hunting vixen ayya.
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Stuck with Jewaira!! You make me sound like am second best! I take offense! Not that you would care I know
J
I didn’t run away but you took back your word and changed your mind
Humph! Typical male cowardice!
Jewaira
Shopa, why should we elope in the first place? plus it costs money.
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I prefer the company of generous people who have mountains of money.
J
I prefer the company of modest people who have mountains of humility.
As usual PseudoRandom you wisdom pours forth like golden nuggets. The perfect repartee
Jewaira
Jewaira, money ha? Gold Digger! and you wonder why I am still single.
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You are single because you love women too much and you can’t settle with only 4
Jewaira
I would recommend readers read Ayya’s series on a subject similar to this one in a way The Forbidden Fruit
True, but that is another issue
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Not entirely
leader of the Edo
J
YEs J.
ALOT but unfortunately few are serious unless their guy has good cash in his bank account others prefer a good job position.. bottom line they all like it but need those to impress their families.
Lady J, Purgs other name is “اشحفان القطو”
heard of him?
Jewaira what happened to the girl who fell in love with a kuwaiti?
BTW purg you are distracting a very important subject here.
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Judy can you contact me on my gmail please. I need to discuss something with you.
Thanks
J
Dear Kuwaiti Love
Your problem is becoming common nowadays, I personally have a cousin who ran away with an American marine around the year 1992 and she’s still missing and the family would not even hear of her. And I feel sorry for her because I don’t know if she is happy, sad, or even if she’s alive. So I would think that this option would not be fair, neither for you nor for her.
For a conservative family like Kuwait marriage is a family bond. So far you two have been alone into this without any interference from the outside world. But, marriage is different bro. And as some here who raised some questions, I would even ask more. First; how much sacrifice are you willing (both of you) to offer? Yes, marriage has many sacrifices, and you have to be ready for them. I’m not talking about the family here, because they will eventually give in especially if the girl is hardheaded, but how about you two?
First of all, you will eventually leave and live in the States, but is she willing to follow you?
Now before you answer this question, did you take her to meet your family in the States? Did you two live together for a while where you would know each other better (I mean outside of Kuwait of course)? Or is she insisting to live here where she’s around her family?
Are you willing to convert to Islam, even if that meant on a piece of paper? Now remember that conversion is an Islamic matter, I.e. it’s a one-way street, you can’t convert back to your religion if someday you wished to do so, or else you’d subject yourself to be mortad which means that your blood will be halal.
And don’t mind me if I asked, are willing to be circumcised (If you aren’t that is)? And most important question is, how religious is your girl? And here I don’t mean wearing hijab and going to mosques all the time, because many Moslems don’t display their religiousnesses, but they are very prejudice when it comes to raising their kids. In other words, what type of mentality does she have? And what type of mentality do you have?
Now going back to the family, I think you’d be better off if you do go and ask for her hand officially, at the beginning there will be problems, especially if the family is conservative, but eventually they’d give in if the girl is determined.
But you should expect those problems to arise, and should also help the girl, not by fighting her family, but by showing them your good intentions. You can use a Kuwaiti male friend to help you in this; do not go asking for her hand alone, but with the friend and when they ask you why did you convert to Islam, be sure to say that it’s because you believe in it in the first place, because there are some fatwas that still consider conversion for the sake of marriage is haram.
Now if you could answer all those questions and you are willing to sacrifice, then go ahead. Chances to find the girl of your dream might not come again in your lifetime, provided that this relationship is built on solid reality and not dreams. Good luck
Purgy
I still want to see your balls if Shoppa doesn’t mind :p
I knew you were around you balls hunting vixen!!! Why do you need to ask Shopa?
i think you should stand up to her family and ask them for her hand in marriage. if they disagree (like they most probably will), then you can elope. but at least they were in the picture at one point. its only the right thing to do. anyways, best of luck & i hope everything works out between you two.
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I think that there is a fear of not being accepted but it does not mean that the parents have been approached already. I think one should at least try to secure an intermediary.
Jewaira
I am reminded of the story of Bahraini princess Meriam Al-Khalifa some years ago.
The princess and the marine
The above blog post has hundreds of comments on it and there are some people who wrote with questions similar to KuwaitiLove’s situation.
A purely technical comment on AyyA’s questions: Circumcision is not a mandatory requirement in Islam, neither for males nor for females. It is Sunnah.
And to the gentleman in question: Don’t elope. If she is worth a lot to you, then go the extra mile for her.
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Interesting.
Once I remember a group of older Kuwaiti ladies discussing a young Kuwaiti woman who had married an American man. One of the first topics brought up was whether or not he was circumcised and of course they all started giggling and chortling at the mere thought.
I do agree with your advice: it is much better to be in the open about matters especially about a serious decision like marriage.
Jewaira
Wow alot of questions….i like it though, because i have thought of all of them before. I dont know if i can answer all but i will say somethings that will give a greater understanding.
I have asked my girlfriend alot of questions about her family and this is the overall opinion that i get from her answers. Well, let me say this first..She lives with her grandparents and it has been that way since birth but she sees her family every week. Her girl cousins and sisters know about me and her mother has hinted that she knows about her “dating” as well, but it is the type of society that she dare not say anything about a man even if there is suspicion that she might be dating someone. If she decided to speak or if i were to approach any male (because of course you are not allowed to converse with married women or single for that matter, because she is covered and her family is very religious and traditional) she would be hid and punished. She would be yelled at, threatened, and all her freedom would be taken away. And our relationship would be over…so that is why i don’t play with that ideal too much because the power of her life is in their hands.
If i were to mention her last name (of course i would never) just about every Kuwaiti citizen would recognize it and understand why i would want to make myself known. I have spoken the name in casual conversation like ” do you know anything about the ***blank ** family and i always get “oh no you dont mess with their women” …so…i have got that about 3 times so i dont bother anymore. But trust me i have done alot of home work.
I never wanted to be married in the past not because of marriage itself, but i never met anyone that made me think about it long enough. She of course is that “one” person who changed all that so now i began to think of a game plan to make it work. She wants to go with me to my home no matter where that home happeneds to be. Were thinking about getting a house and everything a couple wanting to marry would think about for their future. I enjoy her islamic ways and traditions and i have learned so much and i work on my arabic daily. I have seen life through her eyes and i enjoy that because i am very open minded. I dont think that America does it best. I am not old but old fashion, and she was raised that way so we make a good fit… so hope this helps…its a sticky sit. but has to work itself out…thanks everyone for the good advice……btw Flamingoliya of course your invited just make sure you bring the rice…;>
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Thank you KuwaitiLove for sharing that with us.
I still think a trusted person should act as an intermediary in some way or another. I know it is difficult but it may make things easier in the long run.
Sometimes when a relationship is shrouded in secrecy, matters are not seen in the way they should be. This may be grounds for problems that arise later on.
I would never advise eloping, most of all for the sake of the woman because it leaves her vulnerable especially when she is cut off from her family and loved ones.
Who knows? Your girl may be the one to change things for the women in her family.
Jewaira
oh yeah…i am circumcised !!! lol
Mushaakes
It’s true, circumcision is Sunnah, and although female genital mutilation is not applied in this region, but most Kuwaiti families demand circumcision for males no matter how open-minded the family is. I remember the story of a British colleague of my dad who was in his forties and in the process of getting married to a Kuwaiti girl from a very open minded family, and still had to go through the process upon the requirement of the family.
والله انا أقول هل الريال مسكين، قاصه عليه البنت، واضحة السالفة
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Interesting Purgatory.
Jewaira
Hi Jewaira, late reply- I’m still a newbie blogger and just discovered the wordpress feature on track backing your comments and saw your request to share stories.
Here are some success stories of two women in their fifties who married American men (imagine how difficult it must have been 30 odd years ago) and one more recent one. In all three cases, the men were already Muslim before they went and asked for the women’s hand in marriage. If ‘Kuwaiti Love’ is well known in Kuwait and is serious about marriage, he must become a Muslim first and let the community know of it, it should not be linked to their getting married because then it doesn’t seem like he is really a muslim and he wont be taken as seriously.
In two of the three cases, the women’s family initially said no but then the man won them over.
I think the key question is how traditional and conservative the women’s family is and what their criteria is for their daughter. I know a few Kuwaiti women whose families welcomed their American suiters (who were muslim first) with open arms, but they were liberal and educated families.
Incidentally, I know one woman who got married to an American while she was still in college, it took her well over a year to tell her parents and she couldn’t do it face to face. The family disowned her but then they reconciled a few years later. But the husband was never truly accepted.
My advice to Kuwaiti love? Convert first. I don’t know what your religion is or whether you are a religious person but in any event, all paths lead to Rome, if you know what I mean. Islam does not permit women to marry non-muslims because of their children wont be Muslim.
More importantly (the most important thing I’m saying here), you should examine every angle first before you decide to elope because what you are doing, when you do that, is to castrate the father and if you wish to have a relationship with her family at one point you need to tough it out and try the hard way first. If that doesn’t work, then consider eloping. But that ostracized life will eventually be hard for your wife.
How about this: try to cross paths with her brother / father in a social setting, somehow, like at a diwaniyya or something, and let him get to see what kind of man you are before his opinion becomes biased? That will also give you a chance to assess him to know how to approach this in the future.
You sound like a decent man, I’m sure you can win them over, but think of a strategy first. Wallah best of luck to you both and viva amore
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Thanks for sharing Harmonie
J
you are taking wood from home to jungle you have so many nice womens in states leave and marry some one which can be your own and don,t try for that thing which is not made for you.
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Thank you for your comment Khan
J
if you love a girl and wish to get married with her, speak to your family in U.S and if they accept take her with you home and get married boy.
It’s your’s and your girlfriend future so don’t look left right just do the step ahead and look forward not back.
Wish you all the best and hope you get married to your sweet baby.
If you two are happy discuss together, share all the problem you might face in the future and if you can overcome it go ahead.
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Thank you for your opinion Nextstorm
J